Elevator Bellcrank Forces

[kestrel]

I think I've seen pictures somewhere of a Bearhawk with a yoke. Might have seen them about a year ago?

Here it is:

https://bearhawkforums.com/forum/completed-flying-bearhawks/39145-c-gdbn-scratch-build-o-540-very-custom

https://bearhawkforums.com/forum/bearhawk-general-discussion-news/27060-looking-for-tim-babcock-c-gdbn

I'd never do it, but these are "experimentals"!

[Archer39J]

Get the space back, not have to have something between your legs, easier ingress/egress. I get personal preference but there are objective benefits to a yoke, what are the objective benefits of a stick?

And yeah that's a nice example, but if I can manage it the control column will be even farther forward so the whole area will be clear.

[svyolo]

I think yokes are better for IFR, flight training, and multi-crew. Easier to monitor what the autopilot, student, or your flying partner are doing.

But I miss flying with a stick.

[Nev]

I’ll second all of that !

[robcaldwell]

.... what are the objective benefits of a stick?

The stick is more intuitive to me. In a turn, drawing the stick back and to the side becomes one smooth motion; doing the same with a yoke is two motions. The yoke is like playing a trombone and driving a car both at the same time. Upon entering the airplane I feel that I am wrapping the airplane around me as I conform myself to the stick. Don't get that feeling with a yoke. Never thought about egress much. Just push the stick out of my way and get out. Not trying to get all Zen here, but I truly feel that I am one with the airplane with a stick.

I say no thank you to yokes (and nosewheels!)

[Archer39J]

The stick is more intuitive to me. In a turn, drawing the stick back and to the side becomes one smooth motion; doing the same with a yoke is two motions. The yoke is like playing a trombone and driving a car both at the same time. Upon entering the airplane I feel that I am wrapping the airplane around me as I conform myself to the stick. Don't get that feeling with a yoke. Never thought about egress much. Just push the stick out of my way and get out. Not trying to get all Zen here, but I truly feel that I am one with the airplane with a stick.

I say no thank you to yokes (and nosewheels!)

These are subjective benefits, and I feel as comfortable with a yoke. Though the control style is secondary to my joy of flying.

[Mark Goldberg]

Dave - have you flown a plane with a stick? So you have some experience with it to really compare what it is like? Mark

[Archer39J]

I have, and it's fine.

[AKKen07]

I can’t think of one objective advantage to a stick beyond cost/weight/complexity of the build. Once the plane is done - preference is it. I’m certainly not thinking “gee this would be more intuitive and fun if this were a stick” when I’m flying the other. That would be mind bogglingly silly. Both are natural once you get time in them. And there are other factors but to agree with Dave It is way easier to get out of a Maule on floats than a Citabria on floats... way way easier. I still like sticks though. In the Maule, while flying, I have to very awkwardly tuck my lanky legs away from the Yoke rotation and still interfere more than I’d like. Never had that problem with a stick. No idea if that will be a factor for you though.

[whee]

Good on ya Dave for doing it your way. That's what this EAB thing is all about.

IMO subjective vs objective on this occasion is well...subjective. I can see defining getting the space back and not having something between your legs as objective though I'm not sure that space is of any value. That space may be of value to someone and not others so I'd define it as subjective. I personally like having something fun between my legs. Egress, the stick is no factor. Making the door bigger would be something and then the stick would be a factor but there is only one way for me to get into the airplane easily and having or not having a stick doesn't make a difference. There's no sliding into the seat like a Cessna because the door sill on the BH isn't at floor level.

Dang it, I didn't mean to pile on. Dave isn't asking for opinions on what HE wants in HIS airplane. Perhaps we should just provide assistance when asked and hope that he asks for our opinion so we can continue to pile on.

BTW, I'm not sure 30lbs is the right number to use. I know I've applied more force than that on one occasion when I was terribly out of trim during weight/aft CG testing. It took both hands to keep the nose down and I wasn't sure I could hold it with one hand long enough to adjust the trim. You need to plan for those worst case scenarios. I'd suggest a call to Bob. He'll say "I don't know why your doing that" but then he'll kindly help make sure your doing it right.

[svyolo]

Whee, couldn't agree more.

Funny tidbit. For me the last 25 years, the yolk was a cockpit annoyance, mounted on a stick attached to fittings on the floor. Between your legs. Airbus has a sidestick, and happily, nothing between your legs. Plus a fold out table allowing you to eat like a civilized human being. The sidestick had it's own issues.

I still miss a real stick. For a lot of applications, a yoke is better.

Good luck with your yoke Dave.

[Archer39J]

Good on ya Dave for doing it your way. That's what this EAB thing is all about.

IMO subjective vs objective on this occasion is well...subjective. I can see defining getting the space back and not having something between your legs as objective though I'm not sure that space is of any value. That space may be of value to someone and not others so I'd define it as subjective. I personally like having something fun between my legs. Egress, the stick is no factor. Making the door bigger would be something and then the stick would be a factor but there is only one way for me to get into the airplane easily and having or not having a stick doesn't make a difference. There's no sliding into the seat like a Cessna because the door sill on the BH isn't at floor level.

Dang it, I didn't mean to pile on. Dave isn't asking for opinions on what HE wants in HIS airplane. Perhaps we should just provide assistance when asked and hope that he asks for our opinion so we can continue to pile on.

BTW, I'm not sure 30lbs is the right number to use. I know I've applied more force than that on one occasion when I was terribly out of trim during weight/aft CG testing. It took both hands to keep the nose down and I wasn't sure I could hold it with one hand long enough to adjust the trim. You need to plan for those worst case scenarios. I'd suggest a call to Bob. He'll say "I don't know why your doing that" but then he'll kindly help make sure your doing it right.

This is good input, thank you. I wasn't taking 30lbs as gospel either lol, but I doubled that for my ballpark estimate. Analysis has shown those forces are minimal compared to the steel it will be bolted to, but a discussion with Bob is necessary to get real numbers.

I've been looking at the pros/cons and the more I look into it the more sense it actually makes for my mission. I'm building an IFR cruiser and given the range long-term cabin comfort is important to me. So moving things up and out of the way, possibly even enabling a passenger (read wife) to recline and stretch out is something worth doing imo. It's also turning out to be a pretty simple modification, otherwise I'd just be sticking with the stick (heh).

I'm looking at making a Cherokee control column work unmodified, if possible, but we'll see. In the future, if I or someone else wants, in a couple hours you can swap out the yokes for the original stick assembly, so that option will still be there.

Ingress/egress doesn't sound like it's that big of an issue even with a stick, but another pilot/builder pointed out that on floats a yoke could be preferred for the ease of getting out in a hurry. But that's good feedback that the door aperture is the limiting factor for Bearhawks.

A stick is the mechanically simplest and lightest solution, that's why most EABs use it, but that doesn't mean it's the best design for everyone. The feel is completely subjective, and once you get past the machismo factor most people seem to agree there is no right or wrong there. Even fighter jets are moving to side sticks, so this idea (not necessarily expressed here but in my other readings) that center sticks are the inherently correct design is... not accurate.

It would absolutely be quicker, lighter, cheaper, and apparently more socially acceptable to keep sticks, but that's not what I want

[Archer39J]

Bob says 100 lbs was the abuse load on the stick, so I can work back from there.

[AKKen07]

Just out of curiousity Dave (and hopefully I didn’t miss the answer somewhere already) when you spoke with Bob did he mention: what was the “abuse load” derived from? For exampleWas it max force required with trim fully opposite or the max strength of the stick metal/weld or something like that?

[Archer39J]

Bob said he designed the stick for a Max "worst case scenario" 100 lbf. No mention of the flight conditions behind that but looking at the moments and subsequent forces that is unlikely to result from any flight loads.

[Isilverone]

I would add that a “Yoked” Bearhawk Will significantly reduce the # of potential buyers if you were to ever want to sell it and if you want to see how it’s done, you can contact Tony Kaefer in Edmonton (Cooking Lake) as he has one converted.

[robcaldwell]

I considered purchasing this Bearhawk before I bought my kit ( http://www.enduraaviation.com/projec...ples/bearhawk/ ) (I think this is the same one Mike is referring to). What a beautifully built airplane! Unfortunately, it was the yoke that ended my interest. But you are correct Dave, it was the perfect plane for someone!

[Archer39J]

Certainly for the guy who built it

[JimParker256]

Archer39J makes an excellent point. It's his airplane, and if he wants to built it with yokes, and has the skills / resources to modify something as important as flight controls in a safe manner, then ultimately it's his preference that rules the day.

If I was building an airplane with the intent of maximizing resale value and making it appeal to the masses, I would invest the same amount of money (or maybe less) and purchase / refurbish a C-172 or C-182. Now there's a plane that would likely appeal to the largest number of pilots out there who might be in the market for an airplane... (Eye-roll)

But since I'm wanted to build a tandem-seat, reasonably fast, reasonably economical, rough-field capable airplane (the Patrol perfectly meets my requirements), I cannot imagine how yokes would work for both front and back seats in that layout.

Personally, if I were in the market for a 4-place Bearhawk, I would prefer a stick, because the vast majority of my flight time is behind a stick – 1,600 of my 2,000 total hrs was helicopter time. But I would absolutely NOT turn away from an otherwise well-built 4-place Bearhawk that had a yoke. Like the big "heel brakes versus toe brakes" discussion, I find that after about 5 hours in the plane, I don't even notice them any more.