Goodyear 26" and wheel/brake kit

[noema]

Hi Builders,

I am trying to figure out wheel kits that work well with the Goodyear 26ers on a Patrol. There are two considerations (1) brake disc/tire spacing and (2) tubeless. If anybody has part numbers for a working setup that would be most helpful. I am specifically interested in Grove 66.152 or 60-462 66-452 and ABI 199-62.

(1) From what I could gather you run into a spacing issue between the tire and the brake disc with tires bigger than 850. I found three forum entries that talk about that extensively but still could not come up with a specific part list.

https://bearhawkforums.com/forum/bea...els-and-brakes
https://bearhawkforums.com/forum/bea...tion-questions
https://backcountrypilot.org/forum/2...-caliper-17861

The solution seems to be either a spacer between the brake disc and wheel (possible also requiring longer wheel bolts) or a deeper brake disc (e.g: 164-03601 -> 2.597" deep instead of 164-01501 -> 2.355" deep). Latter solution, according to @rvanbladeren, does not work on a Bearhawk because you run out of axle length.

(2) The Goodyear tires can be used on a tubeless wheel. I would prefer that. Unfortunately I haven't found much about it being used. Grove has the 60-462 66-452 wheel/brake kit for tubeless tires. From what I could gather it may be a tubeless substitute for the 66-152. I emailed Grove and got the weight and a schematic (still waiting for more info). Weight is the same as the 66-152 (al, double puck), brake calipers are the same part. The kintetic energy rating is higher for some reason (270755 instead of 206406 ft-lbs). Axle dia and static load rating are the same (1.5", 1750 lbs). Any reason this wheel kit does not work?

grove_66-452.png

Looking at the 66-152 most of the measurements look pretty much the same. Also the anchor bolt/bushing engagement on the 60-462 66-452 seems to be designed to allow for liberal use of brake disc spacers.

Screenshot 2021-01-06 123940.png

[jaredyates]

The solution seems to be either a spacer between the brake disc and wheel (possible also requiring longer wheel bolts) or a deeper brake disc (e.g: 164-03601 -> 2.597" deep instead of 164-01501 -> 2.355" deep). Latter solution, according to @rvanbladeren, does not work on a Bearhawk because you run out of axle length.

I went through much of this too, and alas, it is super confusing. I didn't find that the brake disc spacer impacted axle length though. I put a quarter inch aluminum spacer ring between the inner wheel half and the brake disk, and it doesn't change where the bearings ride on the axle, but rather just where the brake disc hovers in space. The same would apply to the deeper disc, right?

In my case, I was fitting an already-owned set of wheels, so I didn't consider the tubeless. It wasn't any problem at all to extend the hub cap holes through the rim, and use longer pointed screws as bead lockers. I was running around 12 psi and couldn't imagine them spinning before the tire started skidding. If your shopping yields a big price increase to go tubeless, it may not be worth it.

I'm still running the deeper disc and associated torque plates even though I've gone back to 800 size tires. The only downside is that the calipers/disks ride a little further inboard and there is ever so slightly more drag. There is more space between the caliper and the sidewall, and if I were to ever install wheel pants, there might be more problems. I bring that up so that when you are deciding on the wheels, keep future compatibility in mind. If you decide at a later date to run tubes and smaller tires, can you still run them in the tubeless wheels? I would think so, but don't know for sure.

[noema]

Thanks jaredyates,

I believe the solution for the 199-62 (Cleveland or ABI) is either 1/4" (6mm) spacer disc with shallow (164-01501) brake discs or use the deeper brake disc and a torque/anchor plate with deeper bushings.

I read @rvanbladeren post again and it seems that his primary problem with the deep brake disc (164-03601) is only 50% anchor bolts engagement. Instead of switching to the shallow brake disc (164-01501) another solution might be to use a torque/anchor plate with extended bushings. James mention 075-05401 that might work. Also this post from Zzz implies that the ABI 199-62 comes with deeper bushings that work (they use the deeper brake disc and provide more tire/wheel spacing).

Will post as soon as I have more info on the tubeless Grove 60-462 66-452.

For reference the terminology (which I keep forgetting):

13-82-min.png

[James]

Yeah, I never looked at the Grove set-up because I inherited the Cleveland brakes. I haven't gone flying yet, but I feel the longer bolts would work fine, and are an easy retrofit if you space out the disc when going from 6.00s to 8.50+
The deeper torque plates were super expensive, $400 each from memory.

[alaskabearhawk]

Is the gear much different than the 4-place?

[Nev]

Mine is a 4-place, but it seems to be the same issue that you’re discussing. This might help, it comes with slightly longer bolts included and solved the problem right away.

DB425176-F9D2-4A9D-9101-8B5023852C41.jpeg

[alaskabearhawk]

FWIW, I have a Parker 199-62 kit and it fits my 8.50s just fine. After seeing this thread I tried my other wheels/tires. I have 26in Goodyears mounted on the same wheel/disc combo and have about 1/4in clearance between the tire and brake pads.
20210102_175514.jpg

[noema]

Thanks Nev if I understand correctly you are using the Grove 66-154 then added a brake disc spacer (018-012) to get the brake/tire space for the Goodyear blimp tires. In addition you also use longer wheel bolts (AN5-33A) to accommodate this spacer. Based on your doc, Grove cautioned to have at least 0.5" anchor bolt/bushing engagement with new brake linings. Cool that's all good to know.

alaskabearhawk thanks for the picture. That's interesting. I take it you don't have a brake disc spacer installed? To get the clearance do you have the deeper brake discs (164-03601)? If yes, how much anchor bolt/bushing engagement do you have? If enough, what's the part number of your torque plate? My suspicion is that deeper brake discs require a torque plate with extended bushings.

BTW, Cleveland = Parker = Gerdes? Do I have this right? Different brands for the same company?

Mark Goldberg can you confirm that the 4P and Patrol axles are the same. Does this discussion equally apply to both models?

[Mark Goldberg]

The L/G and axle length for the purpose of this discussion are identical on the 4 place, Patrol, Companion, and I think Model 5. Mark

[Mark Goldberg]

I have run the 26" Goodyears on a couple of planes with no spacer. Using the Grove 66-152. The tire clears except when the air pressure in the tire is low - on landing when the tire compresses/squashes - it can slightly contact the brake caliper making a little groove/ring on the tire. So a very small spacer is not a bad idea. 1/8" would be adequate. 1/4" is more than is needed I think. Mark

[alaskabearhawk]

I really have no idea about different brake discs, torque plates, etc. I bought a Parker 199-62 kit and used all the components as provided. The brake disc is 164-03601, torque plate 075-05401 and these are the only part numbers shown in the parts breakdown. The Goodyears mounted on Cleveland wheels I bought from a guy in Nome. I just made sure the wheels were the same and bought them sight unseen. They fit just like the components provided in the kit . I'm trying to understand all this mixing and matching of different parts. I bought the Parker 199-62 kit, installed it and it all fits. I would be careful of adding spacers if they exceed the Parker spec. (see attached) As an afterthought, you could also put a spacer on the axle to push the wheel out a bit. Interesting enough, I measured my slide-on spacer and it measured out to 1 7/16in and the plans call for 1 11/16in. I could even go out another 1/8th inch if I made a new spacer.

Parker.JPG

[noema]

Perfect. This confirms that you can run the deeper brake discs (164-03601) as long as you have the torque plate with extended bushings (075-05401). I think the confusion comes from the fact that the "199-62 kit" is not always sold with the same parts.

[noema]

To summarize:

- Grove 66.152, spacer advisable (1/8" may allow you to use the same bolts, the Grove spacer (018-012, 1/4"?) requires longer bolts)
- Parker/Cleveland 199-62 kit with deeper brake discs (164-03601) and the torque plate with extended bushings (075-05401)
- ABI 199-62, comes with deep brake discs and extended bushings on the torque plates
- Grove 60-462 66-452 tubeless seem to be a good substitute for the 66.152. Based on the drawings a spacer is equally advisable.

I am very tempted to try the Grove 60-462 66-452 but hope I get some more details on how they compare to the 66.152s. On the other hand the ABI 199-62 are the most straight forward option.

[alaskabearhawk]

The only thing that I would disagree with is the comment that 199-62 kit may sold with different parts. There are only those parts spec'ed per each installation, no substitutions in Parker or ABI. If the discs or torque plates are different, there would be a different kit number. A quick search of the Parker catalog confirms that.

[Aero_tango]

...It wasn't any problem at all to extend the hub cap holes through the rim, and use longer pointed screws as bead lockers. I was running around 12 psi and couldn't imagine them spinning before the tire started skidding...

jaredyates
Hi Jared,
I just bought a brand new set of GY 26”.
I like your idea to use longer hub cap screws as bead lockers.
How long the screws protruded inside the rim? Were they needle shaped?

thanks.
Mike.

[jaredyates]

I forgot, let me investigate and report back. Just aproximately, it was around 3mm of protrusion, and I sharpened them to a point similar to the angle of a wooden pencil. To sharpen the screws, I first threaded a die onto the screw, then ground the point on the bench grinder. That way, when I removed the die, it chased the threads, and the die gave me something to hold on to at the bench grinder.

[Aero_tango]

Thanks...good advice to use a tap die threaded onto the screw prior to cutting/grinding....never thought about that. I’ll probably do my tire swap this weekend:-) Thanks again.

[noema]

Maybe an update is in order. I have started my Patrol build a week ago with the landing gear. I am very happy with the Grove 66-452 tubeless wheels, spacer disc, Goodyear 26" combo. Everything came together without much of a problem.

IMG_3583.jpg
IMG_3580.jpg

The gap between the caliper and tire is decent but i wouldn't want any less.

Some things I had to immediately order even though I tried very hard to have all the materials and hardware for the first couple of weeks:

- 6x AN5-33As to accommodate the spacer disc (Grove did not send any)
- 2 more AN5-5As to have 4 on each side of the torque plates
- Aeroshell 22 to pack the ball bearing
- MIL-H5606A to fill the shock struts (needed 2/3 of a quart)
- Loctite 243 to seal them
- EZ Turn fuel lube (for the fuel tank cap)

[AZBearhawk272]

Stefan,

Just a comment here based on been there done that.
The sidewall to caliper clearance is a bit tight there. When the plane is airborne the gear is tucked under and the initial landing loading the tire to earth is very much sidewall deflection.
As the tire spins up the sidewall tends to pull to a straight line from the 3 to 6 o'clock position. The entire tire profile moves inward. 3 o'clock being straight forward, 6 toward earth.
Better location for the caliper is up at the 12 o'clock. Have rubbed 8.50 and the 26 in tubeless are a softer sidewall tire...............

Kevin D

#272 Chandler AZ

[noema]

I can see your point. I looked at a ton of caliper installations and went with the forward (9 o'clock), bleed valve down. I selected for easy bleeding and a position that minimally collects dirt in the caliper. When I considered the 12 o'clock position I found many people having difficulty bleeding them. But I guess that could be a tradeoff worth taking.

Most importantly, I don't see enough space on the Patrol for mounting them up. Do the 4-place gear legs allow for that? Do you have a pic?


A70C1C04-49A2-4A4D-A337-7B37E9B4732C.jpeg