Tailwheel/nosewheel Question

Tfoster100

Member
I know this may sound sacrilegious on this site but has anyone built a 4 place with a nosewheel? Before you tar and feather me I tried the search function and didn’t see anything. And I know the benefits of tailwheel in off airport and backcountry flying are great. I’m just a little late to the party in my md 50’s and prefer to land with nosewheel. I hear I could learn tailwheel landings but I feel I would just be more comfortable landing and typically won’t be landing on rough territory. So just wanted to know if it’s possible or been done already. I really like everything about the BH but this one thing seems to give me pause. Thanks
 
Granted, I’m not the most 'Bearhawk literate' in the crowd, but I don’t recall discussion of a nosewheel Bearhawk. Making such a modification would be an enormous endeavor. Much more complex and time consuming than transitioning to the tailwheel. Tailwheels don't demand supernatural abilities. They just demand that you focus a bit longer. Before you decide to build a Bearhawk, or walk away because of the gear configuration, find a tailwheel plane to get some familiarity. Personally, I think Citabrias are terrific trainers! Embrace the tailwheel!
Remember, J-3’s trained an awful lot of pilots!

Bill
 
I’m sorry I’m not answering your question, but I have to vote for the adapt and overcome option. You can get a decent citabria to learn in for 35-40k. Then sell it for the same. I’ve taught a few students in them and learned to fly in one myself. Totally doable! Don’t be intimidated. After one year with a Citabria you will be uncomfortable in a tricycle gear plane. Heck, if you want to come to Alaska for a few days I might be able to help get you started. Then you might get hooked on the backcountry stuff at the same time.
 
Ok you guys are probably right. I may go up in one around here and get the feel of it. They sure look cooler. And that’s what counts right.
 
It could probably be done but it would take a ton of engineering. The "easy" part would be moving the main gear aft and beefing up the fuselage where you mount the gear. (Its very strong where the main landing gear is supposed to mount) To figure out where and how to mount a nosewheel would be complicated and if you want nosewheel steering, even more so. I'd think it would easily add a year to the build. I hate to say something can't or shouldn't be done as the freedom to do what you want is what I love about experimental homebuilts. But that mod would be a lot of structural changes from the design and you would be basically playing aeronautical engineer at that point (or maybe you are one) I guess I would have to say it would be worth at least trying tailwheel flying first because I think any pilot could become very proficient in tail draggers in a lot less time than it would take to sort out a safe/working nose gear. You are on the right track, trying to figure out how to get into a great aircraft.
 
Ok you guys are probably right. I may go up in one around here and get the feel of it. They sure look cooler. And that’s what counts right.

Not really. The instrument rating teaches you a lot about airspace, ATC and reliance on instruments. The tailwheel teaches you mastery of the airplane.
I’m sure that comes across as snobbery and I apologize, in advance. It’s not about that. Take some time to get comfy in a Citabria. You won’t regret the time it takes.

Bill
 
Jokes aside, tailwheel flying is definitely more flexible and capable than nosewheel flying. Sorry to offend some, but that's a fact. You almost never see nose-draggers landing on the largest rocks.
The fact is looks cooler is just good luck!

To answer the OP directly, I have never seen it done - but Maule does it. There must be a way.
 
Piper and Maule have both done it, but as Rollie says, it requires reengineering the gear and structure. CG vs. gear placement is important for rotation (unless you want to take off flat like a B-52). The gear may not conveniently line up on a cluster and you'll have to structurally engineer the connection between clusters (it's a different kind of loading). The firewall will have to be beefed up and the nose gear will probably take up engine space. It can be done, but you need to learn or know what the effects will be and be prepared for a lot of time working on it. Rollie may be a little optimistic at one year. You may fly it and decide you need to move something or find that it's not worth it and live with something not as good. Still it is 'experimental'. Do what you want but be aware of the ramifications. Good luck!
 
Well, an RV-10 and a Bearhawk have absolutely nothing in common, whereas a Bearhawk and a tri-gear Maule would share a lot more similarities. Yes, they make them and yes, they can land 99% of the places a Bearhawk could land. I love tailwheel airplanes, but you only have a spend a little bit of time on the BackCountryPilots forum to figure out that there are a lot of 206/207s, 182s, 172s, and even 152s landing in the back country. And it's WAY more about pilot skill than it is about where the "odd" wheel is located. You even see Mooneys and Bonanzas landing at a lot of the back country strips. Now, when you get to the point where you're landing in volleyball-sized rocks, you probably need a tailwheel (and Alaska Bush Wheels - the bigger the better)...
 
206's 182's don't land off airport unless it's a hard sand beach or the like. They land away from civilization maybe, but on pretty nice surfaces. Hard packed sand and decently maintained strips. To me, go ahead and get an airplane that is even faster because you don't really need the high lift and drag and you aren't planning on landing off airport, so the nose wheel will suffice.
 
206's 182's don't land off airport unless it's a hard sand beach or the like. They land away from civilization maybe, but on pretty nice surfaces. Hard packed sand and decently maintained strips. To me, go ahead and get an airplane that is even faster because you don't really need the high lift and drag and you aren't planning on landing off airport, so the nose wheel will suffice.

That's pretty reductive. Plenty of off airport opportunities for the AC Jim listed, skill being the limiting factor.

OP: As others have said it's really not going to be worth it to try and make a Bearhawk nosedragger. FWIW I'm building a 4 place and have yet to even fly a tailwheel. Zero concerns about it going forward :)
 
As I am building my 4 Place, I fly with an instructor in his Decathlon about twice a month doing nothing but landings. It's just practice, practice, practice... I want the TW to be the last thing I worry about when I start flying my BH. Even though I received my TW endorsement 20+ years ago.
 
For people without tailwheel experience who call or email asking about our kits - I suggest they go get their tailwheel endorsement. I tell them the first couple hours are very humbling since the plane seems to have a mind of its own. Then after a couple hours they start to anticipate and see any diversion sooner from heading straight down the runway. And start putting in the right amount of correction without over correcting the other way. After 6-8 hours they feel good about it and glad they took the training. Mark
 
I agree and would add that a tailwheel-capable pilot is better at flying nosewheel airplanes also.
 
Did you know that before April of 1991, a tailwheel endorsement did not exist? FAR Currency requirements to carry passengers required 3 take off and landings to a full stop, but one was legal to just go out and fly a tailwheel aircraft solo with no training. Insurance requirements in the 1980's required a 5 hour of experience for me to be covered in a T-craft. I never got any formal training in a tailwheel....I just flew with the seller of the aircraft for 5 hours then off I went.

Today's rules are better. Training is better. Doing what I did may have driven the rules of what they are today. But my point is what others have said....go for it and enjoy it. Implement the basic fundamentals that a Cessna doesn't require, and don't relax.
 
I agree with this whole section. The tailwheel endorsement was a lot of fun, and while a bit challenging at first, quickly just became “the way it is”... And like Jared, I believe it made me a better pilot overall.
 
This is the closest thread I could resurrect to ask this question.

It is coming time to figure out how to fly with the 3rd wheel on the other end of the airplane. Looking at what it costs to rent a plane, it looks like it might make sense to buy a cheap taildragger and fly 50-200 hours, rather than renting.

You can learn in lots of different airplanes. I am really not interested in "the" airplane for tailwheel practice. I guess my biggest priority is being able to sell it easily when I am done, for hopefully not much less than what I paid.

Early Cessna's, Pipers's? I heard Luscombes are fun to fly, and they have a stick. Being able to sell it down the road in a timely matter is more important to me than finding the perfect airplane to train in.

Super Cub's are way overpriced. Cessna 170's are getting up there in price.

Any thoughts? I have slightly above zero experience with light planes, and it was almost all 40 years ago. I have never come close to owning a plane until I bought my kit from Mark.
 
It does take a few hours to get your hand back in on light aircraft, it’s a very different operation in pretty much all respects, particularly coming from the strict SOP’s and regulatory framework you’d be used too. In many ways it’s a much simpler operation once you’re up and running, but they can still bite you pretty quick. I usually seek out a keen instructor - this has just been for nose wheel aircraft that I used to fly a lot and I always learn something from the instructors while they keep me safe.




I’ve kept my BFR current over the years to keep my NZ license alive, but it’s really not enough for me to be proficient at this stage. I’m planning to buy a share in a tail dragger syndicate and become a student again. I’m sure there’ll be plenty of very experienced tailwheel pilots who I can get to instruct me and I’m really looking forward to that experience.
 
Actually re-reading your question, I’ve mis-read it sorry. I think you were asking for an aircraft type recommendation which I don’t have, but very interested in what others recommend too.
 
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I am in the market also. I have over 500 hours hours in a Maule but that was over 20 years ago, I really feel the need to put 100 hours in a tail dragger before doing the first flights in the Bearhawk. From my recent searches it appears the best bang for the buck is a Pacer. At 6400' field elevation I feel I need 150hp in whatever I buy which ups the cost some. My preference would be a Citabria, there are some good looking deals on lower HP PA12s.
 
I bought an avid Mark IV for this purpose. ELSA registered so that I can do the inspections after having taken the required course. Slows down the building process though, but I like it so much I might keep it afterwards.
 
A couple things to consider, one is that those airplanes that you listed that seem overpriced are expensive for a reason - they are popular which makes reselling them easier. Another is that if you want to fly it a hundred hours or so and sell it without losing much you need to resist the urge to improve / modify the airplane, you want to get one that is ready to fly the way it is and not spend money making it nicer as you are not likely to recoup all of what you put into it. For example, if you install new avionics the plane gains the value of that avionics but not the cost of the installation.

Your profile doesn't name which model you are building. If you are building one of the tandem models a Champ would be a good choice, they are relatively cheap and set up pretty similar to the LSA. Citabria would be good too. I think that flying those would translate better to the BH than a Cub would. My opinion. Pacers are cheap and being short coupled, they make you a better tail wheel pilot in the end but they also can take awhile to sell. It took me 1.5 years to sell mine and it was a nice one and I was selling it cheap.

Selling airplanes can take awhile, sometimes years, so my biggest advice is to get a plane you like because you might end up owning it for longer than you plan to.
 
This is the closest thread I could resurrect to ask this question.

It is coming time to figure out how to fly with the 3rd wheel on the other end of the airplane. Looking at what it costs to rent a plane, it looks like it might make sense to buy a cheap taildragger and fly 50-200 hours, rather than renting.

You can learn in lots of different airplanes. I am really not interested in "the" airplane for tailwheel practice. I guess my biggest priority is being able to sell it easily when I am done, for hopefully not much less than what I paid.

Early Cessna's, Pipers's? I heard Luscombes are fun to fly, and they have a stick. Being able to sell it down the road in a timely matter is more important to me than finding the perfect airplane to train in.

Super Cub's are way overpriced. Cessna 170's are getting up there in price.

Any thoughts? I have slightly above zero experience with light planes, and it was almost all 40 years ago. I have never come close to owning a plane until I bought my kit from Mark.

While it makes sense to do what you suggest, there are other factors. If you plan to insure your new tailwheel trainer, you'll find that the insurance company might be more difficult to satisfy than the FAA. You'll need an endorsement to fly it, but the insurance may require 10hrs (or more) dual. An experienced Citabria would be a good trainer (fairly short-coupled, sprighty handling, but not inclined to bite you too hard and really fun to fly!). Experienced Citabria's, like all 'Experienced' planes, tend to be needy. Or, you could find a really nice, well cared for, hangar queen. Might not need the TLC, but the price is higher and you may not come out of it well. If you could find a tailwheel partnership, that would be a great situation.. especially if your partner was a CFI who could do your sign-off.
I think you're on the right track. Couple of hundred hrs piloting a tailwheel will do you good. Be forewarned, however, no Citabria is going to prepare you for the first time you push the throttle fully on your 540 powered Bearhawk!

Bill
 
I know this may sound sacrilegious on this site but has anyone built a 4 place with a nosewheel? Before you tar and feather me I tried the search function and didn’t see anything. And I know the benefits of tailwheel in off airport and backcountry flying are great. I’m just a little late to the party in my md 50’s and prefer to land with nosewheel. I hear I could learn tailwheel landings but I feel I would just be more comfortable landing and typically won’t be landing on rough territory. So just wanted to know if it’s possible or been done already. I really like everything about the BH but this one thing seems to give me pause. Thanks


I`ve thought about the same thing, you would have to move the main wheels back and install brackets for the nose wheel to attach to

I`m not familiar with the engineering involved for such a mod, but I thought the Bearhawk would look just as handsome with a nose wheel.

I found this Tri pacer photo that I think is a close match to what a Bearhawk would look like with a nose wheel.

piper-tri-pacer-airplane-hanger-antique-aircraft-rests-its-airport-142550346.jpg - Click image for larger version  Name:	piper-tri-pacer-airplane-hanger-antique-aircraft-rests-its-airport-142550346.jpg Views:	0 Size:	389.8 KB ID:	54778
 
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I was faced with exactly the same situation as you: building a Bearhawk (Patrol, in my case) with zero tailwheel time. I looked into the cost to rent a tailwheel airplane near me to earn the endorsement, and found that the only local school offering that training rented their Decathlons for $240 / hour, including $75 per hour for the CFI. They estimated 5-6 hours for the endorsement, or about $1,200 to 1500. (By the way, their insurance did not allow for solo flights – you had to pay the CFI rate and take the CFI with you each and every time... Unacceptable.)

Since I decided I should have something with a tailwheel to fly (and stay current while building), I decided to purchase a tailwheel plane. After looking around at pretty much everything with a tailwheel that was available and under $50K or so, I settled on a Citabria 7ECA with an O-200 engine. I'm a bigger guy, and that particular Citabria model has the most useful load of any of them, since it's got the lightest engine, and all the older Citabrias share the same max gross weight. It impacts performance, but I could live with that, especially considering that the Patrol would eventually solve that problem – in spades! I spent maybe 3 months looking, and missed out on a couple of good ones because they sold very quickly – and I was initially slow to commit!

I got in the habit of checking Barnstormers, T-A-P, and the other online marketplaces first thing in the morning, and then again several times a day, hoping to find a new listing before someone else beat me to it. It finally paid off when I found a '65 7ECA with the O-200 that claimed to be in good mechanical shape, but with "ugly" fabric. Oh, it looked pretty good in the pictures, which were taken from 100 ft away, but the guy candidly admitted that it was a bit "rough... The seller and I reached a verbal agreement for me to purchase the plane, assuming it was "as described" and passed a pre-buy inspection. All this occurred less than an hour after he first posted the listing. I went to see it that day (<100 miles from home), and the rest of it seemed to be in good shape, so I gave him a deposit and we scheduled a pre-buy inspection with a neutral A&P/IA. He found a couple of niggling details, and one soft cylinder. The seller wanted to re-work the cylinder, but agreed to replace it if I would pay for half. We rolled that into the purchase agreement and closed the deal.

Insurance wanted me to get 10 hrs in type with a CFI before soloing. No problem, because instead of paying $240 per hour to rent the Deke, I was flying my own plane (<5 gph) and paying my CFI buddy ten dollars per hour more than he was asking (ridiculously low "friend" rate). Even so, ten hours of dual in my plane was way less $$ than the "quickie" checkout in the flight school's Deke.

While I owned the plane, I took good care of it. Every issue that came up was immediately fixed (except, of course, for the fabric replacement). And still, my grand total dollars spent maintaining that plane (including three annuals) was significantly less than I spent on the cheapest annual inspection I had on my previous airplane (a high-performance single engine retractable).

Finally, just short of 4 years after I purchased the Citabria, I sold it. And again it sold within an hour or so of posting the listing on Barnstormers. I sold it for exactly what I paid for it.

If I were doing it all again, I would do exactly the same thing, except I probably would have jumped on one of the earlier deals that I missed out on due to "failure to commit"... Without the pressing need to re-cover the plane (which would have cost almost as much as the plane cost me in the first place), I would probably still own it. The guy who bought it plans to recover it himself (under the supervision of his A&P/IA) and log that time towards his A&P license. I wasn't quite that ambitious...
 
My experience buying and selling boats tells me buying the cheapest one is not the "bargain". Translating that to airplanes, you can buy a Pacer for 18k, spend 40k on a recover, 20k on an engine rebuild, and in the end you end up with a really nice Pacer that might be worth 30k. I would rather find the 30k Pacer with newer fabric and a low time engine.
 
All hard packed nice surfaces.
I have a personal list of off airport sites near me, and stuff like in that video go under the "airport" category because they are so nice and easy to land on with little chance of damage. No need for big tires, etc.
The video proves my post.
 
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If I was going to buy a plane to learn conventional gear I would go with a Luscombe. Fast, comfortable, if your not too tall, easy to maintain and there are lots of them around. Join the various type groups to learn as much as you can. I owned a 65HP rag wing 8A, no electric for years and loved it. Paid $3,000, sold it for $3,000. Flew it all over with a compass and a sectional, pre GPS and never spent a penny on hull insurance or hanger fee's. Airframe parts can be an issue. Another option it the Cessna 120/140. Another fine plane readily available, won't break the bank. I do think a nosewheel should become a part of the Bearhawk lineup. Up here in Seattle there are many working 182/206/207's with monster nose wheels. Gone most of the year they return for maintainence covered in mud and rock chips.
Gerry
Patrol #30
 
I`m not a pilot yet.... just love to build...so maybe I don't have a clue....:D


Just a thought...I think the possibility of a nose wheel Bearhawk should always be on the drawing board and plans for it... ready to go.....There is a possibility the whole fleet might go nose wheel overnight....

they are working like mad to develop new batteries...technology moves forward and things change...

whats holding back electric planes is not the motors but the battery capacity

if a battery was developed tomorrow that had 5X or 10X current batteries...there would be a rush overnight to change out the ice engines and drop in electric motors in almost all small aircraft...with that props would probably go very light.

Carb Icing gone....overhaul costs cut by 90%.....possibilities we've not even considered...like reverse thrust on landing (free and light weight just part of the engine) and prop reverse so you could drop almost straight down into a landing site..(thinking of how we have Stol competitions)...you might have zero landing distances..

In the event solar panels keep up the improvements in batteries...jumping from 17% efficient to %60....or better..
camping in the woods and recharging your tanks(battery) with solar cells on the wing....possibly planes parked outside never needing to be refueled ever again....

regardless....even if solar didn't improve.... plugging in for the recharge would be very economical.....flying might get really... really cheap....

it goes on and on

maybe some batteries can be placed forward under the cowl...hopefully enough to not change anything...but if not...

you would have to solve the problem of having 100 pounds or more gone from under the cowl and a very tail heavy plane....an easy solution I can think of would be to remove the tail wheel and install a nose wheel to remove the weight off the tail and help solve for the lighter nose...with alterations to the main gear...ect..
 
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I agree, electric aircraft are making progress at a much faster rate than aviation did in its early years. It’s a very exciting development and will solve many of the existing issues. Maintenance and it’s associated costs should drop significantly, as should the overall build cost. Takeoff weight should be the same as landing weight, power won’t necessarily decrease with altitude/density, very high torque should be available in short bursts.

You make a good point that a nose wheel would go some way to solving a weight and balance issue on a conversion to electric. I wonder how it would look if the aircraft were redesigned from scratch?

I also think there is probably a reasonable demographic of potential sales that sit quietly in the shadows wishing for a nose wheel design but who don’t dare mention it for fear of offending anyone - effectively creating a form of survivorship bias in the posted comments.
 
The solar array you would need to charge a set of batteries with 1/3rd the energy as 50 gals of gasoline would be massive. Or I guess it could be small, but it'd take 2 years to charge.
The time it would take to charge a battery pack with an energy equivalency of 50 gals of gasoline(given 20% ICE and 90% electric efficiency) on a 240v 50A charger from the wall would be around 30 hours to charge. 205 hours on a standard US socket.
Physics is going to keep solar charging of vehicles being realistic for a very long time. Honestly you need 3 phase power at wherever you park your plane and even with a "supercharger" delivering 120kW at peak you're still well over a 3 hour charge time.

A lot of people don't realize Tesla's are running around with the equivalent of about 3 gallons of gasoline in them.
The amount of battery storage you'd need to equal a 50 gallon bearhawk is about 370kWh. The best lithium batteries are ~250Wh/kg. That's 3250lb worth of batteries. At 10x better energy density we're starting to get into the ballpark, but you still have the charging taking hours or days problem.

Reverse is already a thing on piston airplanes. It has been since the 30s with radials, but MT makes a reversing prop for any lycoming or continental and Airmaster makes them for Rotax.
 
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When it's truly viable for my mission, I'll be one of the first to have an electric airplane. Optimistically I might see that in my lifetime.
 
The los in performance by having a nose wheel that close to the prop is significant -- talk about extra drag several times size and the drag of a tailwheel.

I run a Cessna 206 with 26inch mains and a 850 on the nose into a lot of Gravel bars and strips, It is definitely more capable than most here would realize. But it is very uninspiring.

I do prefer a Taildragger for that work, done right I can do the same landing in a small rough spot so much nicer and smoother on the taildragger where the Nose wheel aircraft gets

beat up much more. The short distance between the nose and mains make for rough role out and taxing on rough ground and hard braking is brutal on the nose wheel - Feels like Plane abuse.

Simply said Tailwheel aircraft open up a whole new Dimension of flight for the Nose dragger pilots. We just checked out 2 New guys on a 150/150 Texas taildragger on 26inch tires.

Once they get the hang of it a light comes on and they never look back. They are Back Country Junky's now
 
My tail wheel experience is in a J3 Cub, Champ and a C180K.

Of all those planes, the Champ is the easiest to land because of the landing gear damping. The Cub and the C180 are more difficult because the gear is not damped and touching the ground too hard will complicate you landing effort. My best advise is be very quick to do a go around if the first touch is not close to perfect. When I started flying tail wheels, I did a lot of bounce and go as I attempted to land.

I got my endorsement in the Cub. And even though I had several hundred hours flying, I felt that the Cub was the best aircraft for me to built my stick and rudder skills. After that I had the chance to fly a C180 for about a year. I maintain my currency in a Champ.
 
Jim, "and yes, they can land 99% of the places a Bearhawk could land" absolutely depends on what your definition of "back country" is. If it's gravel strips/bars, then sure... but if it's more landing places that nobody has been to, then having strong gear up front and bushwheels that do a lot to insure against that stump you didn't see, then 99% doesn't apply anymore. Also, I wouldn't put a tri-gear maule on skis.
 
I wonder how many props that guy goes through. Make no mistake about it, if you are operating on gravel and you only have 10" of prop clearance you are going to go through props.
 
I got a good deal on my 170A. Most people insist on a B model, so the A is a bit cheaper, and it will force you to have good stick/rudder skills due to the lack of dihedral and adverse yaw.
 
Cessna 140 here. Still early in my tailwheel training but it was inexpensive, very good mechanical condition, and easy to find an instructor. I haven't yet reached that stage where things click but I'm told the 140 is a great teacher. The other option I considered was the champ. Both fit my tall frame well because champs are just roomy and the yoke in the 140 clears my knees. If the 140 were a stick it would've been a no go.
 
I learned to fly in a Citab, and have done some instruction in them and a Pacer. With that limited experience in the new tailwheel pilot category I definitely recommend the Citabria. Mark sold me on the BH by comparing its handling to a Citabria (“but sportier”). Frankly I think they are great for everything any 2 person plane could be - except carrying much. They don’t carry much at all. The Pacer would be more of a trial by fire - going from one to the other I was amazed at the difference, but it would force you to get good fast, and if you want a 4 place BH, the side-by-side seating would be nice to transition.
 
I was going to use the same points to draw a different conclusion. My first airplane was a Pacer and I feel everything I have flown since then has been easier. I personally prefer it that way, vs knowing that my endorsement was given in an easier airplane. Plus, Pacers are relatively cheap to buy/maintain and are great for carrying stuff relatively fast. That said, a Citabria is more fun to fly to me. All these are are my opinions and worth every penny you spent on them!
 
Here is what I did yesterday with a Nose wheel aircraft.

Now some will go on about this is what they call an airport :rolleyes:

I see it as my job to find the safest best gravel bar and the big wheels are mainly to help if I miss judge and the bar is softer than expected -- sometimes only softer bars are above water.

Remember we usually land close to gross weight so my customers get what they pay for. We are always heavy.

One benefit of the Nose wheel aircraft is that with a 8.50 on the nose and 26 on the mains it has way more flotation than even a baby bush wheel on the tail the downside is if it does dig in you

usually have damage. If the tailwheel digs in its not a big deal just stop there and unload.

A certified BH5 would be just what I need unfortunately that will never happen.

I included a few pics for inspiration to get flying.
 

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I agree, electric aircraft are making progress at a much faster rate than aviation did in its early years.

It is nice to see an experienced professional pilot show genuine excitement in anticipation of the arrival of the mainstream electric propulsion for airplanes. Over on the Homebuilt Airplanes forum, there is a discussion about this under the title “Why battery-powered aircraft will never have significant range”, and the tone is overwhelmingly dismissive (much in sync with the title). I’m definitely with you on this. There is no reason to believe battery technology development would suddenly slow or stop. And if it does continue at this pace, we’ll have very feasible solutions in 20-25 years. For those finishing their Bearhawks now, it may be easier building a new(er) design optimised for battery propulsion (and selling the old Bearhawk), but I’m sure there will be many who will adapt their current build and even replace/retrofit an existing ICE build.

I also think there is probably a reasonable demographic of potential sales that sit quietly in the shadows wishing for a nose wheel design but who don’t dare mention it for fear of offending anyone - effectively creating a form of survivorship bias in the posted comments.

Yes, definitely. The only thing that has me thinking about Bede BD-4 rather than Bearhawk is the tri-gear (although the cantilever strut-less wing is a very nice feature). I may be the only one here to say this (while looking at all the others readying their tar and feathers), but to me, tail wheel airplanes look ancient (or, at best, “retro”), tri-gears look cool and modern. This perception keeps getting reinforced with every new aircraft design. From Cirrus to Pipistrel to Sling and everything in between, the cool, sleek new designs are all tri-gear. The only new taildraggers we see are the ones designed to specifically appeal to back country and bush fliers.

Bearhawk is a truly great design. Unfortunately, Bob has very clearly stated that he has no interest in tri-gear. So, if it is ever to happen, it would need to be done by a builder with extensive knowledge and experience in the field. And even then, the modification would need to be solidly documented (and, hopefully, ultimately receive Bob’s blessing).

Im not an aerospace engineer, but seeing so many designs out there that offer both options to builders (tail or nose wheel, including that BD-4), I can’t imagine this modification would require profound structural changes to the cabin cage.

Oh, and, by the way, Neville, I like your new seats. The orange trim on the grey looks really great and it is quite nice to see your project moving right along. Now that the cooler weather (and shorter daylight) is arriving in your hemisphere, I wonder if it will mean more time or less time to build…
 
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OK - I have to admit that in 99% of the cases, I think tailwheel airplanes just look better... And when I bought my RANS S-6, I was originally looking at tailwheel versions. But after looking carefully at the aluminum aft fuselage structure (which is bolted to the chromoly cage that surrounds the cabin), I decided I would really rather have the nosewheel version. On the RANS S-6, the nose gear is welded in as part of the steel tube cabin structure "cage," versus being bolted onto the firewall as you see in so many spam cans. As a result, the nose gear seems to be pretty sturdy – yet still with the limitations of a nose gear when it comes to holes in the runway, big rocks, etc... Between the two options (the tailwheel bolted to an riveted aluminum riveted structure OR the nosewheel attachments welded into the chromoly steel cage), the nosewheel seemed like the better option for me and the type of flying I do. (While I do plan to fly into backcountry strips, I'm not planning to fly this airplane into places with big rocks or soft, mushy sand...)

I believe that a properly engineered nosewheel design can be every bit as rugged as a tailwheel, and I've yet to see a better nosewheel design in an LSA-type than what Randy Schlitter did for the RANS S-6. For another well-engineered example (much "higher-end" product), look no farther than the Carbon Cub NSX... Though I don't really like the esthetics of that design, pretty much everyone who has flown that plane absolutely raves about it... And THAT one is definitely designed to go anywhere a tailwheel plane would go.
 
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I believe that a properly engineered nosewheel design can be every bit as rugged as a tailwheel, and I've yet to see a better nosewheel design in an LSA-type than what Randy Schlitter did for the RANS S-6. For another well-engineered example (much "higher-end" product), look no farther than the Carbon Cub NSX... Though I don't really like the esthetics of that design, pretty much everyone who has flown that plane absolutely raves about it...

When you can put a 35" tire inflated to 3psi on the front of a nosewheel airplane, then I'll believe you, until then, you simply won't get the ability to bounce off of an unseen stump without damage like you can with 35's and strong gear.

JimParker256 said:
And THAT one is definitely designed to go anywhere a tailwheel plane would go.

Except skis, or here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tjQwvqrvZQ

Now, I'm not saying that reasonable people do this, but what I am saying is that when you screw up and hit a huge rock/stump, that gear will soak it up and you can fly home, while nothing with a nosegear will survive.
 
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When you can put a 35" tire inflated to 3psi on the front of a nosewheel airplane, then I'll believe you, until then, you simply won't get the ability to bounce off of an unseen stump without damage like you can with 35's and strong gear.



Except skis, or here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tjQwvqrvZQ

Now, I'm not saying that reasonable people do this, but what I am saying is that when you screw up and hit a huge rock/stump, that gear will soak it up and you can fly home, while nothing with a nosegear will survive.

Ya, I'd love to see if Carbon cub would bring a nosewheel up and take it places the other cubs go when a cub on 35s is actually required. It'd be on it's prop in minutes.

That said, they're completely correct in that most people don't need it. I'd bet most everywhere I go would work with their nosewheel airplane.
 
When you can put a 35" tire inflated to 3psi on the front of a nosewheel airplane, then I'll believe you, until then, you simply won't get the ability to bounce off of an unseen stump without damage like you can with 35's and strong gear.

< SNIP >

Now, I'm not saying that reasonable people do this, but what I am saying is that when you screw up and hit a huge rock/stump, that gear will soak it up and you can fly home, while nothing with a nosegear will survive.

Schu, your point is absolutely valid: There are some places where NO nosewheel airplane should go.

That said – and as the video you linked amply demonstrates – there are also people posting stuff on YouTube who will intentionally go places no airplane should go, just to show off their superiority to the "rest of us"... I"m sorry, but I'm not impressed at all when someone with more money than brains (or who is auditioning for a Darwin Award) does something truly stupid in an airplane. There is no way I would risk all the time and effort and expense I put into building an airplane (not to mention possibly risking my life!) just for the ego-trip of saying "Yeah, I landed and taxied across a set of foot-deep ditches, just to prove how macho I am..." (I gotta wonder how long it took him to dig those ditches for the video, and if he filled them back in or left them as a "surprise" for the next poor pilot who lands there...)

I can't remember who (and I can't find the post now), but someone on Backcountry Pilots made a post about how amazed he was to learn that 35" Bushwheels (and probably a T3-suspension with Baby Bushwheels) were absolutely "required" to fly into all the places his dad (or uncle) flew into on a regular basis 20 years ago in their SuperCub on 8:50s and with a standard tailwheel...

When those "old school" pilots finally were able to get Goodyear 26s, they thought they had died and gone to heaven! But now anything less than 35s are completely unacceptable. What's next? 8:50's for tailwheels?

I agree that there are some places a commercial operator may have a legitimate "need" to go, where a nosewheel would not be suitable... (Need being defined as a "life or death" situation where there is no alternative to save a life – anything less than that would NOT qualify as "need to go" in my book.)

I would classify any field with tall grass that could mask "unseen stumps" as one of those places a nosewheel should definitely not go. But I would also classify it as a place where a tailwheel should not go, either - absent that "life or death" scenario. If you take a stump to the prop, or to tailwheel, you're probably not going to be a whole lot better off than the nosewheel guy... Neither of you is likely to be flying back out any time soon...

There are also places where a non-commercial operator (that's all of us flying Experimental airplanes) may "want" to go where a nosewheel probably should not go... But in the real world, those places are fewer in number than we tend to think... If we're honest with ourselves, the vast majority of places where a non-commercial operator should reasonably go are also reasonably accessible to a nosewheel airplane.

All that said, 35's definitely look cool, and I can see how they would provide a significant "safety and comfort factor" landing places where 8:50s might give you a pretty rough ride. But let's not pretend that they are "necessary" for 99% of the type of places we're actually likely to fly into.
 
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The life and death "need" you speak of is 100% filled by helicopters. The ultimate STOL machine.

We are able to go places people 20 years ago couldn't on their 8.50s. I went all over the place on my 8.00s the beginning of last year. Places you see cubs on 35s. But I wanted to go some other places where the 8.00s would have probably worked, but it wasn't 100%. On 31s it was as close to guaranteed safe as you can get off airport. Places where if there's a mechanical or something breaks, you're staying until someone can bring you everything for the repair. And that is why I'm running them. I'd honestly like to get rid of the insane drag they cause.
What you're buying with the bushwheels is insurance, mostly. And flotation. 8.50s don't do very well in dry sand.

I'm largely agreeing with you. A lot of the "stol" backcountry flying on youtube I can do in a king air. PA18s on 35s very much not required.
 
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The only reason I posted was to point out that saying that the carbon cub nosedragger can go anywhere a taildragger can go is false, and that there are some legitimate uses for 31's.

When I have 31's on my airplane it will be 11.653% looks, 15% prop clearance, 17% angle of attack on landing, 24% angle of attack on takeoff, and 35% insurance against me being dumb.
 
For those of you who don't follow his YouTube channel, it appears he has good backcountry pilot skills. How would the outcome have been any different if he were flying a comparable tailwheel airplane with big Alaska bushwheels?

https://youtu.be/77LJUq-BlXE

Terry
 
He would have taxied away from that. Soft sand is 90% of the reason I run bushwheels. We do landings like that all the time, on softer sand than that. He even made a good call in landing closer to the water in the harder wet sand.

There's a bunch of tour companies that run 206s to the beaches for bear viewing. Every handful of years they do this same thing.

One of the advantages to a tailwheel airplane is where there is the most weight, it's distributed by 2 tires instead of 1. So even if you put a 31 somehow on the nose of a 182, it'd still have a lot more weight per sq in on the nose than a 180. Another advantage is if you lose the tailwheel for some reason, it's not that big of a deal. You can still fly it home even.

MT prop did a good job.

Now that he has it apart it'd be a great time to do the tailwheel conversion!
 
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For those of you who don't follow his YouTube channel, it appears he has good backcountry pilot skills. How would the outcome have been any different if he were flying a comparable tailwheel airplane with big Alaska bushwheels?

https://youtu.be/77LJUq-BlXE

Terry

It's pretty hard to argue that if MotoAve had been flying a C180 with 35" Bushwheels (instead of the C-182 with an 8:50 tire on the nose), he probably would have suffered minimal damage landing on what turned out to be much softer-than-expected sand. But would he have been OK if he "only" had 31-inch Bushwheels? Odds are that he would still have been OK. Well then, what if they were even smaller 26" Goodyears? Or if he had the same size tire (21-inch 8:50x6) tires on his C180 mainwheels as the one he had on the C182 nose gear? Would the load being spread across two of the 21s kept it from sinking in and probably flipping over? Impossible to know for sure. In this case, tire sizes (and placement - nosewheel vs tailwheel) are trade offs – a form of risk mitigation.

The video clearly demonstrates that there are, indeed, some places where you should not land with a nosewheel, and that in the momenbt, we don't always get to choose where we land... Though to be fair, one could argue that by flying low along the beach, he was "choosing" to limit his emergency landing options such that he might no choices at all... The CFI's I've flown with (and my Army flight training) taught that an engine failure is a foreseeable event, and that you should give yourself an "out" if it were to occur. I was cringing during the earlier parts of the video, with the foreknowledge that he was definitely going to have an engine failure (it was in the video title), and thinking "Where would I land if the engine quit now?" with ditching the plane in the water as the only viable option at many points in that flight, due to the low altitudes and lack of "beach" along parts of that route. Would I, personally, have made that flight low along the coastline? Probably not. Would I have done so knowing that oil analysis was telling me something might be wrong with the engine? I would hope the answer would be "Definitely not..."

But I also have to acknowledge that every time I gett in the airplane and take off, I accept what I consider to be a very low risk of an engine failure over the densely populated area just off the end of my local airport's runway. If I want to fly the plane, there is no real way to totally eliminate that risk - the airport is now mostly surrounded by housing developments, with only a few open fields remaining. I can mitigate the risk by properly maintaining my engine, by performing a good pre-flight every time – including sumping the tanks, and by planning ahead for the possibility of the engine quitting and knowing where I would go at every point in the takeoff and climb portion... But I can not completely eliminate all risks in flying, any more than I can eliminate all risks in any aspect of life.

We ALL take risks when we fly. Some risks we avoid by not doing something that might increase risk. Others we mitigate as best we can. Some folks (like me) won't knowingly fly into "rough, unprepared" fields. Others install larger tires "just in case" they wind up in a rougher-than-expected landing zone. And some will not fly without 35s on their plane, even if they land 99% of the time on paved, 5000-foot runways, just because they might someday need to land off-airport.

But there are also some risks that can be mitigated by tricycle gear. One of those is better ground handing in strong crosswinds -– especially as you approach the limit of what the airplane can handle. I'm not a super-pilot – just an average Joe... But I managed to get my tricycle gear RANS S-6 (which stalls at something below 30 mph, and which has a published "demonstrated crosswind" capability of 25 mph) on the ground and to the tiedown area in winds that were 35G45, and that were 20* off the runway heading. This took place at the end of a 2.5 hour cross-country leg. I was bringing the plane home from Utah where I purchased it. The winds that came up in the Albuquerque area were significantly higher than what was forecast even an hour earlier. There were several airports within my fuel range, all of which were experiencing similar (or even higher) winds. I chose the one whose runway was most closely aligned with the wind direction ("only" 20* of crosswind). There was no "good" option, only the "least bad" option in this circumstance...

I seriously doubt that I could have landed there had I been flying the S-6 tailwheel model - otherwise identical to mine. As it was, I found myself flying backward on short final at a very low power setting... I had to add power and literally hover the plane onto the runway at about 1/2 throttle. I then had to add power to be able to taxi into that wind. Only the fact that the nosewheel could be held onto the ground with down-elevator allowed me to have enough traction to turn the plane enough (maybe 30*) to cut the corner of the taxiway intersection, and "skitter" the plane across the ramp to a tie-down that was somewhat shielded from the worst of the wind by a hangar. (Unfortunately, that also made the wind quite "swirly" and unpredictable.)

I was very fortunate that a local guy saw my predicament, and came over to help tie the plane down while I held the brakes and kept the engine running to keep from being blown backwards. When I finally got out of the plane, I literally kissed the ground (and the airplane) in relief. Not something I hope to ever experience again! I kept thinking: if I had I purchased an S-6 with a tailwheel (which is what I had originally wanted before changing my mind), the outcome would have been very much in question... A better pilot might have managed to keep it pinned to the ground, and even perhaps done a tail-high taxi (like you see in the YouTube videos) to the taxiway turnoff. But I cannot envision any way that even a truly superior pilot could have made the turn and taxied to the parking area, much less how he could have gotten out of the plane to tie it down... Letting the tail down to the ground would have launched the plane into the air immediately (winds were well above the stall speed of 28-30 mph). Even behind the hangar, the lighter weight after exiting the plane would have likely sent it airborne again... Bigger tires on the taildragger would have only increased the angle of attack on the ground, potentially making a bad situation even worse...
 
It's pretty hard to argue that if MotoAve had been flying a C180 with 35" Bushwheels (instead of the C-182 with an 8:50 tire on the nose), he probably would have suffered minimal damage landing on what turned out to be much softer-than-expected sand. But would he have been OK if he "only" had 31-inch Bushwheels? Odds are that he would still have been OK. Well then, what if they were even smaller 26" Goodyears? Or if he had the same size tire (21-inch 8:50x6) tires on his C180 mainwheels as the one he had on the C182 nose gear? Would the load being spread across two of the 21s kept it from sinking in and probably flipping over? Impossible to know for sure. In this case, tire sizes (and placement - nosewheel vs tailwheel) are trade offs – a form of risk mitigation.

Let me fix that for you:

he wouldn't have suffered any "damage landing on what turned out to be much softer-than-expected sand" The point of 35's is to directly go into places like that without worry because it makes it safe.

I'd say that 31's would have been fine, 29's almost certainly fine (I wasn't there to see the sand, but a good pilot would drag it first and see his tracks), 26 goodyears are a LOT smaller than 29's so probably not, and anything smaller than that I'd say the sand is too soft.

Zach's point about weight distribution is huge. With a nosedragger the weight of the engine is on the nose as the main gear is behind the CG. With a taildragger the weight of the engine is on the main gear, and since there are two of them, you immediately have twice the flotation given the same size tire.
 
Hard to "drag it first and see his tracks" when you've had an engine failure... Kind of makes that "go round" thing pretty difficult.

That said, I believe we're in agreement for the most part on the other points. I'm perhaps a bit less confident that there is no sand too soft for 35-inch tires, having seen 4WD vehicles drop (axle sitting on the ground) into a "pocket" in soft sand with 40+ inch tire/wheels installed... And I'm talking about "falling into" a soft spot in the sand, not spinning the wheels and burying them. Turned out there was a tumbleweed buried in the sand that left an "air pocket" that collapsed when the Jeep rolled over it. Found the remains of the tumbleweed when we dug him out. But that's NOT what happened in MotoAve's video...
 
35" Bushwheels are unreasonable to drag around for 95% of us and that includes me.

If you really have to go to the worst place for a good reason OK but it has to be a real good reason -- the drag penalty is huge and to actually Land where 35s are needed comes with a huge amount of risk. How much do you like your plane.

To Land anywhere where you would not be able to land on 31 should be unreasonable to most. If you think they are cool go ahead fill your boots they are kinda like a plane with lead boots. 26 inch bush wheels are the sweet spot for all around 31 if you push it hard in a capable plane 35s are great for Beavers.


Now on the nose wheel VS tailwheel a 180 on the same size tires would have sustained way more damage than the 182 and the risk of injury would have been much higher when they flip over ----they flip over hard and fast better have a god shoulder harness.

That said I much rather be in a tailwheel aircraft for of airport work done right it allows me to do a nicer job making it easier on the Aircraft.

The Nose wheel always fells like abuse when you need braking on rough ground.
 
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I'd say that 31's would have been fine, 29's almost certainly fine (I wasn't there to see the sand, but a good pilot would drag it first and see his tracks), 26 goodyears are a LOT smaller than 29's so probably not, and anything smaller than that I'd say the sand is too soft.

You can literally taxi over dry running sand with 31s on a Bearhawk 4-place, apart from the tailwheel which does sink in.

You could DEFINITELY have landed on that beach which got MotoAve... taxiing would have sucked, but you could takeoff with no weight on board.
 
There comes a-point where you have to decide what you want from an aircraft 31s may not be it. Maybe you should have 600 tires and a parachute.

Or how about this -- You could have been just a bit too far from the beach and the larger tires may just have induced enough drag so you end up in the trees instead of flipping over on the beach.
If it was as simple as bolting on Big tires to be save in all situations this sure would be simple -- unfortunately this is far from being so.

While I may sound like a Nay sayer I just bought an other set of Bush wheels -- they have there place as a great tool but they are not a fix all deal.
 
But they do specifically fix the problem mentioned here. Flotation, or rather significantly reducing the pressure the aircraft puts on the ground per inch.
There's nothing better for real soft fields.
And I think given how the guy in the video uses his 182, soft field performance is a rather high priority.
 
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I actually met MotoDave a few weeks ago at Tieton. I asked how he wasn't going through props like cookies, he said that he nearly always flies with the Jughead guy in a 170 who does the first landing and makes sure it's safe for his nosedragger.

As for the commentary about landing on beaches and bushwheels, I wonder how many people here have landed on beaches.... and I'm not talking about S16.
 
Used to land my Maule with 8.50s on Cook Inlet and Prince William Sound beaches. Planned my trips to land with an outgoing tide so had firm moist sand to land on. Talked to other pilots who had recently been on the same beach whenever possible.
 
8:22 is at Tieton where I met him. He flew in while we were camping. I was also in my 170. I agree the 170 is a great airplane, but 2200 gross has it's limitations, and everything needs to go through the front doors. His is VERY heavy, I suspect he has around 650 useful.

I'm looking forward to having my Bearhawk done. As great as the 170 is, I expect my bearhawk to be lighter than his 170, with 80 more HP, cargo doors, seaplane doors, sliding windows, skylight, etc. I expect the BH gear to work better two. You need to know how to fly to not get bouncers with Cessna spring gear.
 
Yes, there are a lot of fat airplanes out there. A well known guy around here and abroad that has a bare bones light and stock cub with a sensenich74 by 50 degree pitch prop.

It will give a run to any highly moded cub or what ever you want to bring on because it is an honest 200 pounds lighter than most any highly modified cub.

People love fat airplanes. I am not sure why, the detriments of weight are so significant yet pilots are like magpies more interested in shiny gadgets than well performing aircraft.

By the way Bushwheels have a significant weight penalty as well no free lunch there either.
 
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